Will Brehm  0:00
tavis jules and Florin Salesian, welcome to FreshEd.

tavis jules  1:30
Thanks for having me back again, Will.

Florin Salajan  1:31
Hello, Will. Thanks for having me on the show. And it’s good to be here.

Will Brehm  1:35
So congratulations on becoming the new co-editors of Comparative Education Review. It’s some pretty big shoes to fill. But I think the two of you are up for it. And I guess I just want to chat with you today about where you see the field, and where you see the journal going under your editorship? So, maybe just start sort of more broadly; tavis, how do you see the field of comparative and international education today in May of 2024?

tavis jules  2:02
That’s a great question, Will. Thanks for asking it. In our editorial, we argue that the field today is defined by what we refer to as “wicked problems”, in a sense that we argue that the field is complex, interconnected, involves various stakeholders, and is embedded with an evolving context. And I think that this is very important as we take over the editorship of CER. That CER has changed significantly from its inception, and the way that we think about how we communicate results, data, how we try to inform policy, how we think about the role, scope, and function of our findings, etc. We argue that we need to think of CIE as embedded within a multidimensional -or what we refer to as a four dimensional- context that has to take into account numerous ways in which the world is changing and evolving.

Florin Salajan  2:54
I would also add to tavis’ thoughts that CEI continues to manifest itself as an eclectic field. It’s constantly evolving, and shifting, and we do this in our work; we see it as an assemblage of a vast diversity and multiplicity of disciplinary and scholarly interest that brings together scholars and practitioners and policy agents who are eager to exercise their agency in enriching and understanding developments, events and phenomena and education across boundaries. And I think CER here has a role to play in advancing this understanding.

Will Brehm  3:32
In that regard, Florin, it doesn’t seem like that’s any different today than it was in 1955, or whenever the journal started, right? You could say that there was an assemblage of actors as well. So, is there something about 2024, or our current context that is on your mind as you take over the editorship?

Florin Salajan  3:53
I think it’s perhaps the confluence of different events -the crisis and poly-crisis that we grapple with in 2024, and I think we’ll probably touch up o n these later on in the interview. It’s this combination of environmental degradation that we see and what role that education has to play on our understanding of these events. After effects of colonialism that we are now just beginning to scratch the surface of, right? So, we’re trying to address some injustices of the past from the 1950s, right? So, today, we’re just now grappling with those issues that we are trying to emphasize in CIE, and that’s why I said CER would have a crucial role to play in that. Beyond that, the rise of autocracies and authoritarianism, the degradation of democracies that are eroding educational systems, in a sense. So, those are some of the things that we see today in 2024 that I think we need to get a sense of and kind of chart a better understanding of how we can use education in comparative perspective to understand and to shed light on these developments.

Will Brehm  4:55
And tavis, I want to circle back to what you said earlier, and maybe It’s related to what Florin has just said. But you use the word four dimensional context, what does that mean? Can you unpack that for us a little bit?

tavis jules  5:07
What I think of a four dimensional context is that we have to understand that the context as we think about it in comparative and international education is changing, and it’s not only being affected by the local, the global, and the regional, it’s also being affected by both endogenous and exogenous experiences and ways of thinking. And so you know, in the 50s, when comparative ed started, you had maybe one or two international agencies, for example, involved in comparative and international education. But now you have the whole entire philanthropy movement that is part of comparative and international education. Actually, we will be doing a special section on philanthropy, hopefully, coming out at the end of the year, in the November issue that sort of party impacts this. And basically, what it means by four dimensional is that context is changing, and the actors are changing. And so, no longer can we talk about comparative and international education as being a sort of single, solitary isolatory project. We have to think about the way in which comparative and international education affects people and the way in which things affect comparative and international education. And so, it’s that sort of inverse relationship. And I think if nothing else, things such as the global pandemic, the 2007-2008 financial crisis, and many other things have ultimately contributed to the change in the context of comparative and international education. And for us, when we say it’s four dimensional, we’re also hinting at the past. And this is not often spoken about, but comparative and international education started as a colonial project. And to some extent, it still is a colonial project. And so part of much of what we tried to do with our editorial, and hopefully we get to touch on this a little bit later, is that for us, the central aim of the journal right now is to decolonize comparative and international education. Sort of have it grapple with its historical and foundational roots, and how do we move forward from there. And so the four dimensionality that I’m referring to, is really recognizing that as contexts change, we also keep up with the changing context, and we also grapple with our own history as a field.

Will Brehm  7:09
So, maybe before we dive into what decolonization might look like, in Comparative Education Review going forward, maybe it’s good to just sort of unpack a little bit of that history of our field that would be connected to colonialism or contribute to colonialism. So, Florin, can you sort of take me through some of the ways in which you understand the history of our field? And how some of these sorts of historical forces continue to shape the present?

Florin Salajan  7:38
Sure. So, of course, the history of the field is lengthy, and the point of departure is debatable -where did it start, when did it start? So, if we try to maybe pinpoint to a departure point, then we can think of, again, the 1950s when the field started to professionalize, and if we think about the contextual history of earlier scholars like Jullien de Paris, who have tried to establish a sort of systematic approach to education, we do see some of the historical trends in what tavis referred to -the colonial project. The way in which comparative education has been used to advance a certain disciplinary take on education provision in different countries and imposition of a system or to assist set values about education in the colonial empires, right? So, that’s kind of the broader context of where comparative education can be traced to the colonial project itself, and how comparative education started as a colonial project. And that kind of trails into the later stages in the 20th century when we see the reification of scholars from Europe. So, Eurocentricity of comparative education, which has remained a centerpiece of comparative education. That can be traced back again to those early scholars who hailed from Europe. So, that’s a legacy that has stayed to the fore for a long time in our field. And we still see it impacting our field today, where we’re just now beginning to unpack and disentangle these colonial precepts and orthodoxies about education and what it means to educate, or what it means to create systems of education in the likeness of the European educational systems. Some of the historical factors that have impact on the field are endogenous which deal exactly with the field itself. We see this recurrent in our conversation in the debates in the field, this redefinition. What is CIE? What does it entail? What’s the nature, scope, extent -the boundaries of the field? This is a recurrent theme. And even though we think that this is sort of settled for now, we can be sure that we’ll see conversations again about, well, what’s comparative international education? Well, how do we conceptualize that? How do we consider it? And we’ve seen attempts over time throughout the history of the field to redefine it, reconceptualize it, is it one field, is it two fields, is it an intertwined field? Works of Erwin Epstein, Maya Manson, or Alex Wiseman and Charl Wolhuter who conceived of CIE as an independent field. So, there’s this constant attempt to conceptualize the field and it changes with time. And it changes with newer understandings of how we are grappling with that history of the field. Some of the factors are exogenous, again, we can tie them, again to colonialism, to the effects of colonialism and decolonization that we are just now trying to understand. And some of the events that led to the formation of the disciplinary convictions and in the field. For instance, the positivism that marked the field in the beginning stems from the post-World War competition for economic production, right? So, it is that trend, that mentality of trying to use education for political economic purposes that led to the positivistic attitude bent in the field that is still carrying forward today. We still see a lot of emphasis on positivist studies, which there’s attempts to counteract that through other understandings of educational provision through other disciplinary lenses, through post foundational ideas, through feminism, through globalization and understanding of racial injustices and racial justice that has been used to marginalize communities to the side of the European centers of knowledge production. So, those are all intertwined factors that still have an impact on the field today. And again, we are deep in the middle of trying to disentangle all of these various strands of historical legacies that we are studying and exploring.

Will Brehm  11:45
It’s quite a fascinating way to think about the field, right? As you know, the field is kind of constantly evolving, constantly changing, struggling with what even means to be comparative education, different exogenous forces that have come and sort of continue to impact the field, So, tavis, is there a way to think about an orthodoxy in our field? Or is that not even possible, given the sort of dynamic nature of the field itself?

tavis jules  12:11
I think, given the four dimensionality that we pointed out earlier on, it is problematic to speak of orthodoxy in the field, because that orthodoxy again -and I don’t want to beat it with a stick- that orthodoxy again comes back to the central role that coloniality has played in shaping the field and we haven’t really accepted that. We haven’t accepted it for a long time in comparative education. At the heart of it has been the exoticization of the “other” regardless of what that other looks like, or the exoticization of the thing. Or as one author recently called it we’ve gotten to the point of “thingification”. And so, when we talk about the orthodoxy of the field, we also tend to start with the travelers’ tales, and we move through the various phases. You know, we go through the orthodoxy next which followed the Second World War, then we talk about the heterodox, which emerged in the 70s, and then they emergent heterogeneity, which is the current phase, you know, if you think of the work of Epstein and sort of how he defines this. But again, the problem with thinking of the field as this linear movement, or this linear project, is that it doesn’t account for other voices within the field. And so, as we know, for example, feminism entered the field quite lately and the fact that we still have a Gender and Education SIG, also speaks to how far back the field is. The fact that we need to sort of think of gender issues as being carved out on its own. And we still sort of have a gender committee, that’s also problematic as well, because it shows that the field is fragmented, but also chose that -and there’s a lot of things we haven’t grappled with- the founding fathers of the field are all white men with a very sort of a colonial agenda. And the fact that it took up until a year and a half, two years ago, for us to have the first issue that really talked about racism, that was a special issue put together by Bjørn and so, we are sort of grateful for his vision of sort of thinking about the issue around race, that was the first time that it happened, but the question remains; would we have had that special issue on race, have we not had the Black Lives movement? And so, one of the things that Florin and I are confronting is how not to be reactive in the journal. How do we have a journal where we are not being reactive to the problems of society, the four dimensionality we talked about, and how then can we, in addition to decolonizing knowledge -and we can certainly talk about what that entails- how then do we be proactive? How do we tackle some of the things that we’re seeing, put forward scholarship that helps us to engage in the current discussions and debates, and understand about the ways in which the world is shaping, and the ways in which the world is also changing? I think for a very long time, CIE has been very reactive, and we as a field that works both domestically and internationally should be the field that is setting the agenda in education rather than us responding to other people’s agendas?

Will Brehm  15:01
So, let’s dive into that. How can you decolonize the field of comparative and international education as editors, recognizing that the term itself, decolonization, has become rather faddish and is used in many different ways. Maybe some more meaningful than others, let’s say. But I would love to just sort of get your insight into what does that even look like? How will you operationalize it in the editorship itself? I mean, you have to make choices. So, how will you make those choices?

tavis jules  15:31
We have to make lots of choices as editors, and some of those choices are going to be made for us and some of those choices we will make. When we think of decolonizing the field, we think about the ways in which we are going to have better gender representation on articles, we are also particularly interested in articles coming from the Global South and coming from scholars who have the potential to shape and to change the field, and these are young scholars who are writing and who would not necessarily have been given a chance to do that. We think of the ways in which we can offer mentorship to our authors who want to publish in the journal. If an article isn’t strong enough, how we can pair them up with another senior editor and sort of strengthen that article, if we think that the ideas in there are good. But also, more importantly, decolonization for us also requires that we don’t publish certain things. And we tend to focus on other areas. And so, I think that is going to be very problematic for many people. And one of the things that I have been saying, and I’m trying to get Florin on board is that I think that we’ve published way too many PISA studies. And I have nothing against PISA per se, but I’m going on the record here but the next time that I see a PISA study that is using existing data, or using the existing data set that doesn’t have anything new to say or to contribute to the field, then why are we publishing that? Why not wait until the new examinations are done, the new assessments are done, and then we can sort of see what is being done from there? And this goes into a second point as well -we touch on this a little bit in our upcoming editorial that should be coming out at the end of this month, which is also going to be very controversial as well, too, because one of the things we’re going to try to do is move away from the heavy quant nature of comparative and international education and pay attention to rich, thick descriptions from a qualitative perspective. And so, one of the things that we are proposing in our May editorial is what we refer to as the post qualitative turn in comparative and international education. And one of the things that we actively are going to be looking for, and this speaks to the decolonization of the field, and the way that we’re thinking about it, is to invite people to do post qualitative research where they’re not stuck within the traditional qualitative paradigm of, first you do this, then you do this, then you do this, and then you do that. And so the thing about post qualitative research is that replicability is not the central aim of the research. And we’ve been trained, particularly coming out of the methods wars, and particularly thinking about the scientization of the field, and the positive nature of the field, and so forth that research has a certain linear way of being done. And so, one of the ways that we’re thinking about this, and this is what our May editorial does, is to rethink that linearity and sort of open new avenues, new vistas, if you’d like to say, in terms of how research can be done in the field. And again, the reason that we’re doing this goes back to what we mentioned earlier on; context is changing. Problems are now wicked and four dimensional. And so we have to tackle them head on, and we just can’t rely -in Audre Lorde’s words, we can’t be using the master’s tools to dismantle the master’s house. And so, for us, when we think about decoloniality in the field, it is about looking for new tools, particularly around indigenous knowledges, understanding how those new tools can shape and help the field, and in essence, ultimately, to sort of break down some of the academic walls that have existed in the field for centuries. And I use centuries here loosely, but this has existed from  immemorial and break those walls down, and to start from scratch. So, we’re not saying that, we’re going to throw the baby and the bathwater out, we’re going to sort of take the things that are relevant. But we also feel that it’s time that new things be added, as we think about rebuilding the master’s house.

Will Brehm  19:10
Florin, how do you feel about that? I mean, tavis sort of called you out there a little bit. Maybe there’s a little disagreement between the two of you. So, I’d love to just sort of get your insight on that.

Florin Salajan  19:19
Well, there’s sometimes mild disagreements but we always come to a consensus in the end. No, I echo what tavis is saying, and I want to go back to link that this decoloniality and decolonization of methodology, in a sense, with that intellectual orthodoxy we just talked about. Because one element of that intelligible orthodoxy is in the methods of comparison, and for a long time -going into the positivistic and positivist bent of CIE- the field has relied heavily on this unit of analysis of prescribed, narrowly defined, units of analysis. Whether it deals with the nation state, the region, the continent, the sub national level, or international level, it’s always been defined units of analysis. And this has been used in this colonial project to draw distinctive comparisons between those units. And sometimes that’s not so clean, you know. So, that’s where the context comes into play. And of course, there’s been debates in the field about the contextual nature of comparison and the relativistic part of comparison. And I think this is where we can attempt to use this word loosely, a little bit decolonize methodology. Using more of the thick descriptions, the indigenous cosmologies in describing phenomena in education, and bring to the fore those marginalized voices from the Global South that would give us a different understanding, a different perception or perspective, of educational events or phenomena across the world, across those boundaries. And to come full circle here is yes, we don’t want to throw out prior knowledge, right? So, in this sense, we approached the editorship in CRE with the pluriversality in mind after Escobar’s notion of designs for pluriversal thinking where the likes of Arturo Escobar or Walter Mignolo, or Anibal Quijano, don’t call for a purging or discarding knowledge from the Western centers of knowledge, it’s merely a recognition or celebration of knowledge from outside those centers and elevating them to the same level as Western knowledge and fusing those elements together. So, keeping what is relevant, what is impactful, what is salient, from Western knowledge with philosophies or ideologies, if you want to put it that way, and epistemologies from indigenous cultures and the Global South, right? So, bringing those together to fuse them into a symbiotic relation between scholars and scholarship that creates new understandings for these wicked problems, and multifaceted, interconnected problems that to some extent, Eurocentric approaches have failed to respond to?

Will Brehm  21:55
So, I’d love to ask how do you plan on bringing to the fore scholars from the Global South. Bringing to the fore knowledges that are non-Western and giving them equal weight and importance in the journal which, you know, of course, the limitation of being an English language journal, you already are sort of limiting, in a sense, what can and cannot be put in there. So, I’d love to know, practically, how are you going to overcome and sort of operationalize some of these ambitions?

tavis jules  22:22
We’ve talked about languages, and one of the things that we are actually going to start playing with, which will be -again, I keep saying that there are going to be lots of changes and uproars. We are playing with the thought of publishing book reviews in Spanish -full Spanish, no translations. We are talking about a special section in Spanish of the journal. But going back to your question about how do we bring these voices in; over the course of 2025, you’re going to see a very different Comparative Education Review journal, because we’re going to be having four special sections over the course of next year. And in those special sections, they are going to use the same rigorousness that the journal is known for. And by that I mean, it’s three peer-reviewers, it’s going to be blind reviewed, and so forth. But what we have done, we have intentionally assigned sections to section editors who are from, in many instances, the Global South, and ask them to curate a set of papers, four to six papers, for a special section from authors in the Global South who are working on these areas. So, when you look at the 2025, four issues, you’re going to see regular articles that have been submitted and have gone through that blind review process and so forth. But then you’re going to see a set of special sections that we have commissioned towards helping us sort of shape the debates in the field. So, there are several topic areas that we’ve looked at. And we’ve said that these are the current debates that we need to be having within the field. And we’ve commissioned special sections on those debates. And now we’re going to have the authors write on them. And so, for us, that’s a way of sort of moving the conversation along. One of the things, as I said earlier that we find with CER, is that it’s often reactive and we trying to not do that, because as much as we love special issues, a special issue is quite expensive to commission. But we do realize that we can give up some of the real estate that we have in the regular issue and we can dedicate special sections to that. So, the first special section that we’re going to launch is going to be, as I mentioned earlier, on philanthropy in the November issue, and many of the authors who are writing about the impact of philanthropy in education are coming from the Global South. There’s lots of conversations that are happening in Brazil, in southern Africa, in northern Africa, and the role of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, the Chan Zuckerberg Foundation, and how they’re trying to come in and remake education. And these authors who are actually experiencing these transformations firsthand will be writing about it. And so, that’s sort of how we plan on bringing the South to us. And again, we also understand that we are confined by limitations, but the second thing I’ll mention quickly here is that for the special sections, we’ve also asked authors to not present articles in the conventional way, which is going to be another change. So, you might see articles with lots of drawings and sketches, you might see articles with poetry embedded within them. And so, what we’re also trying to do is to remake and reshape the article in the way that the traditional article looks like. But it will still be bounded by the blind, peer review process -which in time, we hope to change but for now, that stays because we recognize that we’re also doing a gatekeeping function. But we also plan on using the website a lot more. And there are a couple of different interesting series that we’re going to pull together. In terms of putting things together, there are like three or four different lines of publishing we’re thinking about launching as well, too. And all this is under the auspices of helping us to bring a different type of knowledge to the West, while at the same time recognizing the importance of Western knowledge.

Florin Salajan  25:54
I will just add, from the practicality perspective, that those guest editors that we are asking to lead these special sections rely on their own networks of scholars that work, or are, from the Global South. And we are looking at various avenues to bring those scholars -because you asked about the scholars- into the conversation either through direct contacts and invite them to submit manuscripts that go through the rigorous peer review of CER, or through calls for papers. So, there’s a bit of a mix of approaches; direct contact, direct invitations, an open call for papers that we will disseminate through our communication channels, we will send these through the CIES newsletter, or through peer institutions or peer associations in other places like BICE, or in Oceania CIES, and so forth, so that we can attract people from the Global South from different locations that would have an interest in contributing to the journal in these special sections. And that’s our aim and goal and hope we can pull this through and have those special sections. We expand on what the previous editorial team did. Initially I think they were waiting to see how the special sections would materialize from the submissions. We take a more targeted approach with the special sections. We want to go out and actively seek out contributors from the Global South, from indigenous communities, from marginalized communities, to bring them into the conversation. And I say conversation as a broader term conversation in CIE to make their voices heard.

Will Brehm  27:31
I mean, both of you, it’s such a really nice, tangible thing that you’re doing and is definitely pushing boundaries. And it’s really quite exciting. I want to ask as a final question; if you were to get two rounds of the editorship. So, that’s in 10 years time, right, in one decade, how would you like to see the field? Like, how would you like to leave the field? To say, your editorship was successful, how would the field look?

Florin Salajan  27:56
Since, I don’t have a crystal ball to say, you know, this is what it looked like, but we hope it’ll be a more inclusive field, right? So, we keep talking about inclusivity. And we’ve been talking about inclusivity. But we constantly ask this question; are we inclusive yet? Are we truly inclusive as a field? Have we brought those voices into the conversation? So, this is exactly what kind of just talked about -bringing in voices from other heretofore neglected areas, whether marginalized communities, whether epistemologies that have been marginalized because they were considered either not advanced or not up to par with Western-oriented epistemologies. So, we want to see a CIE that’s more interconnected. And I draw again here, tavis and I have written about this, I draw again on our work on assemblage, right? So, we see this as an assemblage. Hopefully, it will be a more interconnected patchwork of scholarship and scholars rather than isolated scholars working in centers of knowledge that dominate the field, right? So, we want to elevate, again, those centers of knowledge that are hailing from centers that have not been emphasized in the past. So, we want to see more interconnectedness, more interrelationships between centers of knowledge in the Global North and Global South, and scholars who can contribute to that desire to bring more interconnected knowledge generation in CIE, and we hope that CER will be a vehicle for this process, for this desire to change the field in some way that will be impactful after we leave the editorship.

Will Brehm  29:31
And what about you tavis?

tavis jules  29:33
In this context, I would also say I think link part of the inclusivity that Florin is talking about. It’s also the appreciation or diversity, but not diversity in the traditional sense but the appreciation for the use of diverse methods, theories, and concepts and bringing them into comparative and international education in a way that helps us to sort of rethink and reinvigorate the type of debates that we’d like to have. 10 years out if I were to look into my crystal ball, I prefer to be not having the same old arguments that we’ve been having. And that is, “do you compare within or between”, you know, “is institutionalism better than borrowing and lending or vice versa”. I would like to think of us setting the tone, as I mentioned earlier, and the trajectory of the type of research that is occurring both within the field but in education in general. And I think one of the things that we often forget is that Comparative Education Review is an American journal, but we have a diverse as well as an international scope, and our editorial board is diverse. And it hails from every continent except Antarctica. That’s our editorial board. But at the end of the day, I think as an American journal functioning within the American educational landscape, we should be the place that should be leading the discussions around the way in which the global can sort of reshape or help us understand American education, and American education’s place within the global. And I think that, for me, is sort of what 10 years would look like. And that will also mean paying attention to the fact that were we to secure another editorship that if we are going to be realistic about the journal, at least a quarter of the articles that are being published in the journal should be published in Spanish, again, to reflect the American reality that we are an American journal functioning within American society in recognizing that there’s so many Spanish speakers within that. And so, the first part of that is decolonializing the journal and that may not sit well with many people, but that for us is sort of pushing the boundaries. Because at the end of the day, the journal was established to be reflective of the needs of society. How can we say that the journal is reflective of the needs of society when a quarter of our 4,000 plus members are Spanish speakers, but the journal doesn’t speak to them. So, that’s just one instance and we don’t have time to go into many other instances. So, for me, those are the types of things that we will push for in sort of 10 years. So, when you think of decolonializing comparative and international education, I think it’s maybe a two or three dimensional process in the sense that we sort of need to decolonialize the mentalities of our readers and sort of what their expectations are, and move them from viewing a journal that is always reactive to one that is proactive and leading the discussions. I think, too, we need to be realistic about our audience and the type of people who are publishing in the journal, and the type of things that we need to publish in the journal to make sense and relevance. And I think one of the things I can say here, and I’m not sure where Florin stands on this; sort of 10 years out, the question becomes, what does the traditional article look like? Can we still be bungled by the 8,000 word article? Will the 8,000 word article be relevant anymore? And if it is irrelevant, will the structure and the focus have changed over time? And if so, what does that look like? And the third thing I would say, is that we ultimately need to think about how we embrace knowledge. And I would love to see, again, an American journal of American things. I would love to see some of the indigenous work that is being done in education by the various indigenous peoples in the US. I would love to be able to publish some of the work that they’re doing as well, too, from the various regions across the US and sort of, to talk about that. So, I think 10 years out -knock on fake wood-, if we were to be able to have the ability to do that, there are lots of things that we would like to do. But we also recognize that the change happens slowly. We have to be cognizant of our constituents and the people who we’re trying to do this change for. But I think if we’re given the opportunity and the trust to do it, I think we can help shape the field in a way that is less colonial, that is less problematic and more inclusive Terrestrials

Will Brehm  33:39
tavis jules and Florin Salajan, thank you so much for joining FreshEd. Best of luck on this journey. It sounds exciting. I’m actually really ready for the ride, and you can count on my support. So, thanks again.

tavis jules  33:50
Thank you for having us.

Florin Salajan  33:51
Thank you, Will, for having us. It was a pleasure.

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