Will Brehm 1:51
Wambui Munge and Shubha Jayaram, welcome to FreshEd.

Wambui Munge 1:55
Thanks, Will, it’s great to be here talking to you.

Shubha Jayaram 2:00
Thanks, Will, it’s a pleasure to be here.

Will Brehm 2:02
So, Wambui, what is the skills gap?

Wambui Munge 2:06
This is, I guess, the theme of what we’ll be discussing today. So, in a nutshell, the skills gap is the gap that exists between what employers are looking for and the skills that youth have. Partly due to this gap, a lot of young people are unemployed – one in eight young people worldwide, according to some estimates. And in Africa and Asia, the concerns that employers have with the skills of the young labor market is their difficulty with filling vacant positions. And this stems from two sources: one is that there are skills shortages, meaning there aren’t enough graduates at a particular level of education or in the right field of study. And the other challenge is the skills mismatch, meaning whether young people are educated or not, they lack the skills to fill open positions. So, what’s happening is we’re seeing more and more African students completing secondary school and entering universities. But at the same time, only 6% of young people in Africa are enrolled in higher education institutions, compared to a global average of about 26%. And a real mismatch exists between the African education system and the jobs in a knowledge-based digital economy. So too many graduates are earning degrees only to find that they’re not qualified for lucrative employment opportunities, because of the lack of basic technical and transferable skills. Then in Asia, the situation isn’t much more encouraging. A significant share of Asian workers feel that they are over or under-educated for their jobs. And meanwhile, you have employers lamenting over a lack of qualified graduates. In fact, a ManpowerGroup survey shows that 48% of employers have difficulty filling vacancies in Asia in 2015, compared to 28% in 2006. And just to put it in context, the skills gap is very alarming when you consider that Africa and Asia are now, today in the present day, and will in the future be home to the largest youth population in the world.

Will Brehm 4:30
So, what sort of skills – you mentioned, technology and transferable skills – what exactly do employers seek that students do not have currently?

Wambui Munge 4:44
So, some of the skills that employers are looking for are what we call “soft skills.” So, skills that are very important but tend to be difficult to measure or quantify. Skills like communication, like leadership, like critical thinking. Those are the kind of skills that employers are increasingly prioritizing. And of course, you have in this digital economy, IT skills – skills related to using computer technology as well.

Shubha Jayaram 5:17
And just to add to that, these soft skills are often known by many terms. You know, they’re called “soft skills.” They’re called “non-cognitive skills.” They’re called “life skills,” “21st-century skills,” oftentimes. But, as Wambui said, they really are a broad set of wide-ranging skills, and they are critical for young people to be able to succeed not just in the workplace but also in their personal life.

Will Brehm 5:45
So how do we know that there is a skills gap? I mean, presumably, there is always a skills gap because education will lag behind the changing economies of different countries. So how do we know that there’s a skills gap? And then how do we, in a sense, know that the skills we’re saying are missing will be the skills needed in the future, when economies have changed?

Shubha Jayaram 6:19
To your first question that how do we know that there’s a skills gap? So, I think one of the ways we know is what we mentioned before: that the employer surveys that take place regularly that ask employers, “Are you able to find graduates? Are you able to find adequately skilled workforce to fill the opportunities that you have?” And these surveys are showing that employers are actually having a tremendous amount of difficulty filling their vacancies. So, there are jobs, but employers can’t find skilled employees to fill those positions. And so, for example, you’re seeing that not just in Asia, but you’re also seeing that in Africa and more globally. And the most recent Manpower survey, actually 2016, shows that 40% of global employers report a shortage of talent; they just can’t find the employees with the right skill set to fill that vacancies. And your second question was around: isn’t there always going to be a skills gap as economies change? And so, what does that entail, and what would that look like? I think that’s a great question. I think that’s a great point. And I think that’s why there needs to be this emphasis on ensuring that young people have those soft skills or whatever we choose to call them, those life skills. And really, the focus needs to be on transferable skills and learning how to learn. And these are skills that you can take with you from one job to the next, whether it’s leadership, whether it’s communication, whether it’s being a problem solver, being an analytical thinker. And these skills, for example, teamwork, or self-confidence, they really are applicable, regardless of the industry, regardless of the sector, and are critical for young people to adapt to a changing market as well.

Will Brehm 8:22
So, is this, you know, being able to take certain skills from one job to the next, it makes me think that this is also about preparing students for a global economy that is much more about precarious work, where people don’t work in the same field their whole lives, but have to be, in a sense, entrepreneurial and be able to take on new jobs because the jobs the employers they get don’t necessarily have the need for them long term or they can always move to another country and find cheaper labor. So, is this idea of transferable skills and preparing students in education to work in the labor market really signifying that the labor market has really changed in the 21st century to be much more precarious?

Shubha Jayaram 9:25
So, two thoughts there. I think the first is absolutely. The jobs of today may not be the jobs of tomorrow, and that may not be the jobs 20, 30 years from now. And so, having those transferable skills and being able to adapt to what jobs may exist 5, 10, 15 years from now, whether it’s in your geographic region, or in another district or another city, I think that’s absolutely critical. The second point just to make here is that many of these soft skills – these skills we’ve spoken about, such as entrepreneurial skills, communication, leadership – are very important not just for the formal sector but also for the informal sector. And the bulk of jobs in many parts of Asia and Africa are in the informal sector. And so, these skills are going to be critical to be able to thrive in the informal sector as well. Running your own business, for example, or being able to navigate as an entrepreneur.

Will Brehm 10:30
So, if you were to do this survey about skills in education, and maybe the gap of skills that education is providing youth, and if you were to ask nonbusiness owners or say labor unions, or say government policymakers or say students themselves, or say parents, do you think you’d get different answers to what the skills gap looks like?

Shubha Jayaram 10:59
Yeah.  I mean, I think to be to be honest, as you know, we haven’t done research in this area, and we don’t quite know enough about the space, but I imagine you may get some different responses. So, I imagine, depending on who you ask, the prioritization of the skills that are needed may be different. And I think that’s something to keep in mind. So, depending on the industry, on the geography, the skills prioritized, and you know, the hierarchy of skills, I think you could see that it’s different. But a lot of the research we have seen and we have looked at shows that regardless of the sector, and regards to the general prioritization, the bucket of soft skills and non-cognitive skills does fall somewhere near the top. But the prioritization of that and the relative weight may vary based on the industry sector, employer.

Will Brehm 11:55
These non-cognitive skills are presumably different than what I normally think of as vocational training, where you’re being trained for, say, a specific job, or maybe IT is part of vocational training these days. So, what role do you see vocational training playing in the skill development in education?

Wambui Munge 12:22
I can take this. So, in most developing countries, students have the option of either going into the formal track, the traditional academic path, or pursuing vocational training, specific training that prepares them for, you know, specific avenue of work. And the latter, vocational training, tends to be the better option for students seeking immediate, or is considered the better option, for students seeking immediate employment. But what we’re finding is that in many countries, it’s highly stigmatized. And the curriculum or curricula of many vocational institutes is not always aligned with what’s demanded from today’s 21st-century economy. And in fact, you may have heard the expression, Will, that vocational education is a great thing for other people’s children. And we’re seeing this, in the case of India, for example, where there’s a long-standing perception that vocational education is only for students who perform poorly in academic studies. So, then the default becomes to pursue vocational education. But we’re also seeing some positive examples where programs, these are privately run programs, are working to address this. So, we’ve studied the case of Lend-A-Hand India, which is based in India. And this program allows rural students to learn hands-on skills in a number of vocational areas so that they can make an informed choice as to whether and what type of vocational or technical track they want to pursue after graduation. But what’s interesting and particularly encouraging about this program is that it also emphasizes relevant soft skills like entrepreneurship and critical thinking. And yeah, so I would say that’s what we’ve seen, what we’ve learnt, about vocational training. There’s also been some efforts to incorporate or consider typically excluded groups, like disadvantaged groups, into this area. So, for example, in Vietnam, only 2% of people with disabilities have access to vocational training, but there are programs that are working to address this. And one of them that we studied is called the Information Technology Training Program. And this program, which is funded by USAID, has trained over 900 students with disabilities in advanced IT skills, soft skills, and job searching skills, and 70% of those trained were able to find jobs. So that’s encouraging too.

Will Brehm 15:17
Do you think that vocational training needs to be brought into the school curriculum? Or if it should remain kind of separate? Like you said, there’s two different tracks: the academic pursuit in secondary school, and then the vocational track for other students.

Wambui Munge 15:36
That’s a fantastic question. And it moves slightly out of the bounds of our research. But I think one thing that I hinted at in my responses that it’s important for students to have flexibility in terms of what they want to pursue. And it’s also important for us to kind of destigmatize vocational training. But you know, one thing, the reality of vocational education is that it tends to be expensive. So many economically advanced countries can bear the high cost of vocational programs and have chosen to include specialized vocational education and training in their upper secondary stages. But in situations, in cases in the developing world, where only a minority of the age group continues in school beyond primary education, it’s a more complicated question.

Will Brehm 16:32
What about strategies to destigmatize vocational education? In your research, did you come across any ways to do that?

Wambui Munge 16:44
We haven’t covered specific strategies that can address the stigma. What we have done is shed light on programs that are successfully working within vocational education to get people employed and productive. And I mentioned one before, which was Lend-A-Hand India, and there are a few others which are highlighted in our book, in our previous skills-related research. So, we haven’t really delved into specific strategies to address the stigma question, but you know, it’s something important you’re flagging, and potentially in there, you have new research for us or others who are interested in tackling this topic.

Will Brehm 17:25
So, when you looked at all these different programs in these different countries in Asia and Africa, what were some of the best practices that you found in terms of teaching employability skills.

Shubha Jayaram 17:39
So, what we found in our research – and this is highlighted in our book – is we’re seeing that some of these best practices are around ensuring demand-driven, experiential, hands-on learning. So, we’ve seen that skills need to be relevant to employers. And we’re seeing that partnerships between employers and businesses are absolutely crucial to close the gap and ensure that students are learning the relevant skills so that when they leave school, they’re equipped with the right skills to be able to enter the labor market. And we’re seeing that hands-on learning is one particularly relevant way to do this, where in the classroom, students are learning by doing, so they’re engaged; it’s very participatory. And they’re fully immersed in what is going on in the classroom or outside of the classroom, as the case may be some of the models that we profiled.

Will Brehm 18:35
So hands-on learning is the best practice that you found.

Shubha Jayaram 18:41
Absolutely! We’re seeing that experiential, hands-on learning, learning by doing, is something that’s been shown to work in a lot of the programs that we’ve studied in our research. And in addition to that, there may be other opportunities to deliver these skills. So, for example, teamwork could be fostered through, say, business clubs at school or extracurricular activities. So, for example, one of the programs we studied had young students in secondary school forming these after school business clubs, where they came together to learn entrepreneurship skills, and they identified a challenge in their community. And then, together, they created an enterprise to help solve that challenge. And so, they learnt about teamwork, they learnt about communication, they learnt to identify and solve problems. And in the midst of all of this, they, of course, learnt about, well, how do you run an enterprise? How do you market your product, etc., etc.? So, these business clubs were an interactive, hands-on way of delivering these skills to youth.

Will Brehm 19:47
Another skill that you mentioned in your book was English, and that being very important to employers. And when I read that, I was just curious thinking about Asia and Africa and having a lot of Chinese development aid pouring in. And it made me wonder, would not Chinese be an appropriate skill for students to learn, particularly as China invests more foreign direct investment in those countries in Asia and Africa? So, why English and not Chinese, I guess?

Shubha Jayaram 20:25
Yeah. Good question. And to be honest, we haven’t done research into this area, and we don’t quite know enough through our work to say too much about this here. But I think that’s worth probing in some more depth. And I think certainly, there have been a lot of developments in the past couple years with Chinese investment, in particularly say Africa, that may highlight some interesting findings.

Will Brehm 20:51
Yeah, I guess for me when I think when I start thinking about all these different types of skills, and how they may change over the next 30 years or so, and the power of a employer survey being used to dictate what skills need to be taught, I start getting a little worried, I guess, about the connection between public education and the private businesses and them having a much larger say in public schooling. So, in your research, did you come across this tension? And how did people make sense of it and navigate this tension?

Wambui Munge 21:38
That’s a great question, Will, if not you know a slightly contentious and controversial one, as we think about, you know, the increasing role of the private sector in education. But I think the reality is that even in privatizing times, like our own, the state still has a major major part to play. And in fact, nowhere is this fact more evident than in the educational arena, right. So, employers need states to facilitate activities that aren’t necessarily provided by the market. So, infrastructures, not to mention providing them with an ongoing and suitably skilled supply of labor. So here at Alpha D, one of our big priorities is to work with a cross-section of change agents. And we recognize that these change agents can come from the government, they can be from the state, or they can be from the private sector, they can be from a wide range of actors. And they all contribute to kind of solving this challenge of getting young people working and getting them jobs. So, our general sense is that many of the most effective skills development models that we’ve identified in this book and in previous studies have relied on resources and commitments of a variety of stakeholders. So effective public/private partnerships are something that we’re finding really important and allow even more impact and sustainability into existing education systems and improve their efficiency as well. But I think one important caveat here is, as I make that point, is that for these partnerships to be successful, there needs to be a clear mandate from each side and a clear set of definition, or a clear definition of responsibilities and benefits to each side to make these kinds of partnerships effective.

Will Brehm 23:47
In your research, when you spoke with these various employers in many countries, did any of them say anything about the role of education in social cohesion? As researchers, we know that education is, many times public education, is about getting students jobs in the labor market. So, transitioning from education to the labor market, but also the idea of building social cohesion in nations. And these two goals look differently in different countries, and different countries emphasize one over the other in different periods. But generally, we see these two sort of goals happening simultaneously in most education systems. And I just wonder in a lot of these countries in, say, in Asia or in Africa, that are developing or post-conflict, social cohesion is actually a very important piece of the education system to kind of create a unified nation. So, I just wanted to note, are employers talking about education in these terms as well? Do they see that role for education?

Shubha Jayaram 25:02
Yeah. So, I think in terms of I think in terms of social cohesion and the importance of social cohesion, I think that’s a really good issue to consider and think about. I think something that we’ve seen through our research is that social cohesion, and I think related to that is civic education, and I think that ties to your point there too. Civic education and citizenship, absolutely, we see that it fits within a secondary education curricula. And as you say, as many countries in Africa and Asia are revising and updating their curricula, these two pieces, these two components, are very much part of this new curricula, very much part of this 21st-century literacies if you think about it that way. What do you need to know in the 21st century? And these are 21st-century literacies, and they’re already being articulated. And as you may know, the Sustainable Development Goal 4 incorporates this as well. So, we have SDG Goal 4 saying that by 2030, you know, learners are going to acquire this knowledge, they are going to be aware of human rights, they are going to be aware about sustainable development, sustainable lifestyles. How do you promote a culture of peace? What does that look like? And this concept of global citizenship. So absolutely, I think that’s on the forefront of the minds of educators in the curricula. One important piece here, though, is how are teachers trained to teach these skills. So, I think, you know, having this in the curricula is very important. I think the next step is, of course, ensuring that teachers and educators are appropriately trained to teach the subject and the content matter to students within the classroom. And I think that’s where we need to do a little bit more thinking about how that can be done and ensuring that teachers are adequately trained to foster these skills in youth.

Will Brehm 26:56
Yeah, I could see that being very challenging because teachers are typically trained through some state program, and the skills we’re talking about are being identified by employers. And so there must be some sort of influence of these employers on public policy, and that must translate into new training modalities for teachers. And that I could see that being very challenging in many of these countries.

Shubha Jayaram 27:26
Absolutely. I think you’re absolutely right. And that’s one of the pieces we highlight in our research with this book, and subsequent piece of work we’ve done, is this need for very close partnerships between educators, between employers, and of course, incorporating the voice of youth themselves. But it’s important to get employers and businesses, being able to talk to educators, both to say this is what we need, these are the skills we need, and allowing that to then shape the curricula. And that’s particularly relevant for vocational schools as well. One other point there, too, is that, as you say, teachers need to be able to be trained to teach those skills that employers are seeking. And so, the role of the teacher is absolutely crucial. So that conversation, this partnerships between employers and educators and incorporating that perspective in the curricula is critical. And then the role of the teacher and how you’re training teachers to deliver those skill sets is going to become very important. So how do you train and support teachers to teach social emotional skills, and we’re seeing, our research has shown, that often teaching methods continue to be a bit outdated. So, for example, we’re seeing that rote learning is still often commonplace. For example, you know, the teacher writes something on the board, and students just copy it down. That’s still the norm in many countries. And that’s really not the ideal scenario, where you’re trying to teach a skill, such as leadership or critical thinking, you know, skills that are prized by employers and are crucial to take with you from one job to the next. And so, teacher training is very important.

Will Brehm 29:12
Another issue that I think is going to have to be navigated is this issue of class because it really does seem like a lot of the skills that we’re talking about, particularly these vocational skills, are meant for a particular type of student and not others. It’s what Wambui said: vocational training is excellent for someone else’s children. And so how can we navigate the issue of class by promoting these various skills and trying to bridge the gap of skills that employers seek, how do we make sure that the education system is not basically reproducing class divides in society?

Shubha Jayaram 30:03
I think there’s a tremendous stigma surrounding vocational education. We touched on this earlier. And I think it’s worth raising again, I think this the stigma is certainly there. I think it’s there particularly in Sub Saharan Africa and South Asia, but it’s even here in the US. And it’s crucial to change that mindset. And, you know, in countries where vocational training doesn’t carry as high as stigma, for example, in Germany, you’re seeing that those countries are seeing a lower rates of youth unemployment. So, something we need to think about is how can we change that mindset in countries where that stigma exists. And one way, as we discussed earlier, maybe to show that link between vocational education and obtaining a job, so to be able to, sort of, make that pathway quite clear. So that’s one thought. Something else is that there needs to be a more flexible approach to general versus vocational trainings. There needs to be less rigidity and less tracking. Less funneling of students into certain tracks, you know, say 14 years of age when they’re still quite young. And so, we need to ensure that all youth learn basic foundational skills and try to ensure that vocational training, on the job vocational training, it could take place alongside an academic path, or there could be flexibility in moving from one path to the other, moving back, so on and so forth.

Will Brehm 31:36
I mean, there’s a lot here. And it’s a very interesting book that you have put out because it really, it looks at a lot of these issues in so many different countries that are so diverse, but also share many similarities when it comes to skill development in the 21st century. So, I do recommend it to all of the listeners out there to go check the book out. And Wambui Munge and Shubha Jayaram, thank you so much for joining FreshEd. It was really a pleasure to talk.

Wambui Munge 32:06
Thank you so much, Will. Thanks.

Shubha Jayaram 32:09
Thank you, Will. Great speaking to you.

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