Will Brehm  2:01
Claire Maxwell, welcome to FreshEd.

Claire Maxwell  2:02
Thank you for having me, Will.

Will Brehm  2:04
So, can you give me a sense of when education very broadly experienced this so-called global turn?

Claire Maxwell  2:12
Well, I guess it depends on how you define what the global turn is. So, there’s many parts that constitute what we might call the global turn. Some of these include an increasing commitment to a more cosmopolitan orientation within the curriculum rather than one that’s solely focused on local or national issues and scope. For quite a while there’s been an increasing interest in international credentials as part of the schooling process and gaining these international credentials. For quite a while there’s also been increasing mobility for the purposes of education, certainly at higher education level, but increasingly now also for schooling and particularly secondary schooling. And there’s also been the increasing influence of international and supranational organizations in the governance and direction forming of education and the purpose of education, the kinds of credentials, and the kinds of values that should be espoused through education programs. So, one could probably trace different moments in time when the so-called global turn came about but broadly, I would say these influences started to really gain traction at the turn of the 21st century.

Will Brehm  3:24
And is there a particular sector in education that is more likely to have these global elements, so to speak, operating through it?

Claire Maxwell  3:34
I think that’s a really interesting and actually quite important question. I would say initially, it’s been the purview of more elite institutions, people with higher levels of resources, the internationally mobile that have for quite a while now had this sort of global orientation or certainly been looking to have global elements integrated into their curriculum in some way or other. It has become a sort of selling point or some sort of signal of a good education. An institution at the forefront of innovation. But what’s interesting about the book that we edited is that in fact, what you find is that internationalization has crept through and seeped into institutions and into social groups across the board. And I think that’s what’s really important about internationalization now, is not to see it only as something that happens in the most resourced groups, in the elite institutions. But it’s actually something that people almost everywhere are grappling with and trying to make sense of, and feeling like it’s something important, and interpreting it, and implementing it in quite various ways. And that’s what’s exciting about what’s happening now, as opposed to when did the global turn first take hold?

Will Brehm  4:53
So, what does it actually look like then in some of these so-called non-elite institutions or secondary schools rather than higher education?

Claire Maxwell  5:02
So, I think it looks different in different places, and it looks different in places near to each other and then similar in places quite far away from each other. So, obviously the International Baccalaureate is a key example of what internationalization looks like and can be found in very different places all around the world. Another very important form of internationalization is the global citizenship education, which again, has really been taken on as a sort of trope that so many now talk about but again, is very differentially engaged with and understood. So, those are two examples. Another example would be a bilingual curricular which is increasingly being seen as important. The mobility of students and also members of staff so that you have the mobility of students coming in from elsewhere to be educated in schools. They’re a huge source of business income for many parts of the world and are actively sought after by many institutions, especially in the so-called Global North. But then there’s also the mobility of teachers. And so even schools that aren’t international, per se, also, there’s a cache in saying that you have international members of staff. So, one example I’ll give you, that Pere Ayling has written a very interesting book about how Nigerian elite parents wish to educate their children. In the case that she looked at this was parents sending their children abroad to England and to the States to be educated in traditional elite institutions. But she also found that Nigerian schools back in Nigeria, if they want to sort of elevate themselves to elite status needed to have teachers who were British or had been trained in the UK. So, there’s various ways in which this international credentialism is used to signal value.

Will Brehm  6:59
And it seems like there’s an element of colonialism that’s still present in there if these elite institutions in the UK or maybe even in America are the ones signaling to others that this is in fact an elite institution back in, say, Nigeria, I mean, that just seems like there’s still a clear power dynamic happening between countries, between schools, between systems, which is strange because perhaps cosmopolitanism is somehow supposed to be a way of equalizing power relations.

Claire Maxwell  7:32
I agree. And for the main, I would agree with that. In fact, I edited a book that came out in 2018 that explored that point. And I think that would be generally how you could understand what’s happening today. But I think what’s also interesting is that there’s also ways in which sort of that neocolonial dynamic is being challenged. So, Howard Prosser wrote a fantastic chapter in this 2018 book that I wrote on internationalization and elite education, where he questioned the Ecuadorian government’s desire to expand and make available the International Baccalaureate to all young Ecuadorian pupils as sort of an anti-colonial endeavor. I make something that has great value internationally available to all. And in that way, you kind of disrupt the power dynamic. But then, you would have scholars like Julia Resnick for instance, who would argue well, the IB, it’s a Western concept. It’s owned and managed by an organization that’s based in the North. It’s still a colonial endeavor despite it really kind of being widely spread and taken up in Latin America. So, I think there’s lots of questions that don’t necessarily have a clear answer on that. And I think the other way in which it’s being -there is some resistance. And I think that’s what a book that I edited with Miri and Laura is really about, is to question and open up that. Because I think overall there is a sense of colonialism still being kind of driven through these processes of internationalization. But there’s also resistance to that. So, I think now we’re at a point in scholarship where we really have to explore and understand those and try and theorize whether or not they are colonial sort of influences or not, and how we could take what is on the surface, potentially, something that continues to emphasize sort of North-South power relations but can be used in a more kind of disruptive way by groups of parents, by schools, by governments in the Global South to sort of challenge that dynamic.

Will Brehm  9:40
Yeah. It’s an interesting phenomenon because it seems like there’s this notion of internationalization that has become, I guess, hegemonic in a way and that it’s these elite interests and terminologies that are now sort of trickling down to non-elite institutions and so there’s pressure to use the terms and the curriculum that comes with it or whatever it is, but then still trying to undermine the very hegemonic nature of the idea itself. I really like that idea. And I think of people like Michael Burawoy, who has done a lot of ethnographies about global capitalism and how peasants can sort of undermine the interests of global capitalism even while working within it.

Claire Maxwell  10:24
Yeah, absolutely. And there’s so many. At the moment, there’s really exciting scholarship that would sort of take one side and others would take the other. And I think that’s, in a way, what we also tried to do with this book was bring together a broad group of scholars that would enable us to start having conversations across different fields of scholarship. And that was also one of the reasons why we brought in sort of academics and practitioner academics as well because I think sometimes the conversations about these issues become quite siloed to some extent where people publish and a theory that they draw on and so it’s really important actually to have that debate a little bit more, rather than just accepted as a hegemonic force that can’t be challenged.

Will Brehm  11:07
So, can you give some examples of maybe, you know, what might be considered contradictions between what maybe some academics are thinking and what some practitioners are thinking and the way in which internationalization looks like in everyday practice? What are some of these contradictions that we can think about?

Claire Maxwell  11:26
So, I think one example is, so Laura Engel did a chapter with Heidi Gibson on how internationalization was being done quite differently in different parts of the States. And the United States is, of course, a really interesting context to look at because it’s so large and education is run at a federal level and sometimes even at a local level. And the examples that Laura and Heidi looked at in relation to internationalization actually tend to suggest that the internationalization is being used very much to try and reduce the gaps in inequality that are so prominent in the US educational landscape. Whether or not they’re successful or not in doing that is perhaps another question. And I don’t think we have all the data that we need to make that evaluation. But for instance, in North Carolina, they’ve brought in the International Baccalaureate into impoverished schools as a way, of sort, of bringing up the level of education, increasing the aspirations of those communities. Of course, one of the challenges in that is that these communities are often thinking, “Well, we need to keep people in our communities to rebuild them because they’re impoverished. And so is the IB going to make young people think that they need to flee, and find, and go elsewhere”. So, these are some of the sort of problematics of internationalization that need to be  debated and thought through.

Another example is where you try to introduce the International Baccalaureate into public schools in the States as a way of trying to stop the fleeing of middle-class families from public local schools into other kinds of schools as it carries that sort of valuable credential. So, I think these are interesting examples of how there is a potential to disrupt dynamics of inequality by using this idea of internationalization and the imperative of internationalization, which is all consuming, but in a way of interpreting it locally. So, that it has some potential value to local groups who aren’t being educated for international futures. And you know, if I think about these examples and compare them to some work that I’m doing with Adam Howard on sort of elite schools in different parts of the Global South who have absolutely bought into this idea of a global orientation, internationalization, but even they are using it in very different ways. In some cases, they’re doing it to send them out to become part of a so-called transnational capitalist class. In other cases, they’re doing it because they feel in order to make these young people potential leaders in their nation, in their regions, they need to have these international credentials and experiences in order to be able to sort of lead.

Will Brehm  14:06
Yeah, right. And does this ever come in conflict with the purpose of nation building where the idea of schooling is to socialize youth into being future citizens of a nation state, whereas internationalization, it seems like one of the goals is to sort of create this cosmopolitan, maybe transnational capitalist class that sort of sees beyond the nation state. So, it might be a bit tricky, I would imagine, at times.

Claire Maxwell  14:35
Well, I think it’s hard to answer that question. I tell you why. Because on the one hand, on a theoretical level you can see there’s a dilemma or tension. You can also see at a political discursive level, that it’s absolutely seen as a tension. Especially in times now where people often argue we have this surge of populism and nationalism. But in fact, I think how many educational institutions and families are seeing it is not that there’s a conflict. And it’s really about understanding that we’re now really in this interconnected world. And even if we’re actually trying to nation-build and support economic development of local areas and nations, to do that, we need young people who understand how to operate in a more global, in a more cosmopolitan space. And not often talked about and not often really acknowledged in the way in which internationalization is now being interpreted and implemented in schools is, of course, this idea where internationalization or cosmopolitan started off is that actually it’s about intercultural understanding and more humanitarian kind of values behind it. And that does often sort of slip off the agenda, but actually, you know, I think in that sense, you can kind of bring together these what seemed to be conflicting ideals and values and actually integrate them more. I think just one other example of the way in which it could be seen as a tension, but I don’t I actually think in practice it becomes attention is that often, these very international kind of ways of interpreting curricula and outlooks is also something that more and more parents, really no matter what social grouping they come from, they kind of expect it. And they want their children to be exposed to that. They think it’s important. Whether or not they believe their children should become globally mobile or join a transnational capitalist class. So, in that sense, it’s also something very equalizing because there seems to be more and more of an understanding that the international is key, and why shouldn’t all young people have the opportunity to learn in that kind of space and be prepared to think globally?

Will Brehm  16:40
And what about, sort of, privatization of education where the business interests that obviously are present in internationalization? You know, the IB is obviously a -I think it’s a for-profit company, if that’s correct. So, they have a particular interest in mind, not simply advancing these nice ideas of internationalization. Or for instance, I think you said earlier, many universities and even many schools now are relying on international students as a main revenue stream. So, can you talk a little bit about these dynamics of what perhaps we could call privatization or the business interests that are present in internationalization?

Claire Maxwell  17:22
Yeah, well, you’ve hit the nail on the head there Will, in terms of something that we have to be very cautious about and very critical about. And of course, there are many wonderful scholars who write specifically about that and really examine that. And I think it is the sort of dark side of internationalization, no doubt. If we think about higher education for a moment, I think this current moment of the Coronavirus is very interesting. I have a wonderful colleague, Rebecca Yee, who’s at Stockholm University, but currently doing a fellowship in Singapore. And she’s just writing a very short piece on the responsibilities for international students who now have had to leave in the most part, the US, the UK where they have been studying and propping up universities financially because now they can’t stay there and whose responsibility is it to repatriate them for want of a better word. And I think these are questions that I’ve also asked myself working in higher education institutions with high numbers of international students. What responsibility do we really have to them to prepare them for employment in the future? To support their emotional well-being? And I think these are not questions that are perhaps engaged with enough by institutions at the moment. In terms of other private interests, it is very difficult, as you say, for institutions that are so reliant on some of the technologies that are being sold by some of these private companies. The pressure to offer the International Baccalaureate when it is a very expensive undertaking. The idea that these private entities are experts in education and could solve problems of inefficiencies. It’s a very kind of -they’re very susceptible, I think, often to some of these promises and investing in these things. So, I think that’s why it’s so important that we continue to unpick what is happening around internationalization at various levels. What are some of the advantages of internationalization? What are still some of the things we have to be cautious about? And engaging policymakers and practitioners who are actually the ones that are moving internationalization forwards, to be able to more critically analyze that. And I think that’s why some of the chapters that you find in the book that we’ve edited hope to try and unpack that a little bit to show where there is agency to actually use internationalization for the well-being and the sake of the educational institution, and all the students that should benefit from it. But it’s certainly very challenging and there’s so many influences at play here that we’re not always able to see through the sort of myriad of things going on.

Will Brehm  20:07
I want to return to Coronavirus or COVID-19 because it does seem like this crisis is transformative in perhaps the way we even think about internationalization. And maybe it’s a bit too early to know fully and assess what is happening, but what do we know about what’s happening to not only universities but other school systems because of COVID-19? How is it beginning to challenge ways of thinking about internationalization?

Claire Maxwell  20:41
Well, I mean, as the first example, because as you say it is still very early, is the repatriation of international students, be they young people still in compulsory schooling or university students. And the sort of dislocation that they must feel from one minute being one place and the next minute being some other place, and a sense of when will they be able to return? And I think what COVID-19 has also done is brought up this really sticky issue, which again, I don’t think is often written about quite so much. Although we do see there’s a wonderful article by Johannah Fahey and Jane Kenway on a British elite school, it’s a girls-only elite school that has a lot of young women from East Asia as students there. And they write very eloquently about the kind of insipid racism that these young women experience. And you see that everywhere else in terms of student mobility and the way in which these groups of young people are understood as students and as individuals. There’s an interesting chapter in the book that we edited that we’re talking about today, by an Australian academic who talks about an Australian school that has a large number of international students coming to it and she’s a sort of practitioner-scholar. And she’s trying to understand how they’re developing what they call a pedagogy of internationalization and tries to show the ways in which the school is able to conceptualize it and develop it as a way of thinking, “We can’t just teach these students as any Australian students. These students have different needs, and we actually need to adapt all the way from how do we teach English literature, for instance?”. And so, it’s this level of detail, which we often don’t find much written about in academic sources. And also, I know the institutions, both at the schooling level and the higher education level, are grappling with and I’m not convinced to coming up with enough innovative solutions and ways of practicing to move forward. So, I think there’s a lot of issues there which perhaps because there is this one group that have been affected so much by COVID-19 -i.e., the international mobile student- that maybe their position in these institutions will need to be looked at more critically in terms of what are we actually doing for these students? Rather than just what are the students doing for us? which is paying high fees to be educated in the North?

Will Brehm  23:08
Yeah. You brought up that issue of racism and the university where I currently am -where you used to be. There was a story a couple weeks ago about a student from Singapore who was assaulted on the streets of London because the people who assaulted him thought he was Chinese and had the virus and was spreading COVID-19. And so, there’s this level of racism that is obviously present for when people move all over the world. And it’s interesting. The University did respond, but did it respond well? Did it meet the students’ needs? How are they caring for the student now that he’s back in Singapore? You know, these are all good questions. How much responsibility do these institutions have once the student is no longer a student or is a student but at a distance? I mean, these are really difficult questions that I don’t really -just even practically I don’t know the answer to.

Claire Maxwell  24:06
Absolutely. And I think it’s interesting now, as you’ve said, Will, I used to be at UCL and I’m now at the University of Copenhagen. And I’m actually struck by how few international students we do have in our programs. And so, it’s such a different context in terms of the constitution of students and student groups. And it’s an interesting question about whether or not countries that have perhaps been more careful about the student intake and have been less about the sort of financial rewards that international student mobility brings, as the Anglophone universities have relied on for much longer periods of time, whether or not they’re going to open up the offer to more international students. But also, what the impact of that will be in a context where they’re just not used to having a real mix of students. So, I think that’s perhaps a very important question that the international, at least higher education space needs to think about a bit more. What lessons can we learn? And what kind of responsibilities do we have to encourage student mobility because, of course, since the beginning of what was a university, mobility has been critical, at least for staff, but also increasingly for students. There’s a really interesting chapter on that matter by Roland Bloch and some German colleagues from the University of Halle in a book that I edited in 2018 on internationalization. And it’s fundamental to the purpose of the university to encourage mobility but with that, as you say, come responsibilities. Not just when they’re with us, as in at the institution but also beyond, I think. And I’m not sure that universities have really tackled that yet.

Will Brehm  25:43
Well, Claire Maxwell, thank you so much for joining FreshEd. It really was a pleasure of talking and I look forward to reading more of your work, maybe bringing in issues of Coronavirus as it unfolds over the coming months and years.

Claire Maxwell  25:57
Thank you for having me Will.