Will Brehm 2:34
Halla Holmarsdottir, welcome to FreshEd.

Halla Holmarsdottir 2:36
Thanks, Will. Great to be here.

Will Brehm 2:39
So, when COVID forced schools across Europe to close, did most schools sort of shift online quite quickly and easily?

Halla Holmarsdottir 2:49
Well, that is a good question. Um, I wouldn’t say that most schools shifted easily. A lot of the schools shifted, of course. And we have research showing that a lot of the teachers, of course, worked really hard to get a lot of the teaching online. But I think what we are seeing across Europe is a really geographical divide, in a sense, whereas in some countries -so I’m located in Norway. We are relatively well off, we have good infrastructure, most of the schools had computers, a lot of the homes had, you know, technology in them, but we have countries such as in the south part of Europe, such as Greece, which has a relatively lack of infrastructure in terms of homes being connected, schools being connected. In Romania, we have what we call about probably 25% of children who were not reached during COVID. So, I think what we were seeing was a really divide in terms of what countries could do.

Will Brehm 4:06
Hmm, interesting. So, there is some sort of digital divide within Europe, between countries. And what about within countries? Are there certain, you know, more rural parts of certain countries that lack this sort of digital infrastructure that makes online learning possible?

Halla Holmarsdottir 4:23
Oh, yeah, I think so. I mean, let’s take Europe as an example. So, the highest proportion of households, for example, with internet access in 2018. We have data that shows that countries like the Netherlands have really high access, while countries like the UK, Germany, Finland, and Denmark, report that. Yeah, nine out of ten households have internet, but then we have countries such as Bulgaria, which report say 72%, Cyprus, Romania, Greece, Portugal, which also have really low numbers in terms of internet’s capacity. And then, of course, there are the rural-urban divides, whereas in some countries, the infrastructure is just not there. So, maybe we could call it even … I mean what we generally called it was a homework gap, but I think now we’re calling it an education gap in some ways.

Will Brehm 5:21
And so, when it was called a homework gap, what did that mean?

Halla Holmarsdottir 5:25
Well, it meant that maybe as more and more teachers were using, you know, digital tools and requiring that of children, in terms of, you know, go online, look for this, do that, you know, you don’t have the family encyclopedia anymore, that was the divide of children. And maybe in our generation where, you know, your family had the home encyclopedia where others had to go to the library. But now you have, you know, go online and Google this, or look for that, or write a report or make a PowerPoint presentation. So, when teachers are requiring that, we have to understand that parents have the infrastructure at home to allow children to do that. And so, in that way, it was probably called the homework gap at that point. But now, when we have all, or a lot of the education going online, then the gap is more an education gap, rather than just a homework gap.

Will Brehm 6:25
Right. It is not just simply doing the homework at home after school, it is actually school itself, which becomes the gap being able to even access the online learning.

Halla Holmarsdottir 6:35
Exactly. And then, of course, we have different kinds of divides. You know, what we call levels, or we have gone through different levels of divide within countries.

Will Brehm 6:45
Such as?

Halla Holmarsdottir 6:47
Well, I mean, initially, we talked about the digital divide as being what we call the first digital divide, which was linked to access and connectivity. In many countries, we have that now, but, of course, as I just said, not all countries -we still have that kind of divide geographically. Whereas some countries -both schools and homes- don’t have that access and connectivity. We also then have what we call the second level divide, which is more the readiness and the skills. So, the skills that enable people to use technology. And so that education provides young people with those skills. We have a third level divide, which is generally referred to in terms of digital use. So, in other words, it concerns the nature of technology, how that is integrated into student learning. Some researchers call this the social or cultural benefits derived from accessing and using the internet. So, we can kind of think about it as a kind of cultural capital in some ways. And now we are sort of starting to see some discussions around researchers talking about a fourth level divide, which deals with more issues of representation. So, in other words, do we include the spectrum of experiences and perspectives from different kinds of students? Do we look at representation in terms of different ethnicity? We can talk about the way in which technology is designed and who is designing the technology. Generally, it’s been young, male, white men. Few women in the technology industry, we are starting to see more women. But do we see a lot of people of color? So, the representation aspect is now coming up and starting to be discussed as another possible divide?

Will Brehm 8:44
Interesting. So, these four different levels of divide that then sort of cut in different ways across Europe? And I would imagine other countries as well. But so, in Europe, do we know anything about why these divides even exist?

Halla Holmarsdottir 8:58
Well, I think it just has to do with the infrastructure. I mean, if we look at some other countries that have relatively poor access to, say, internet connections or territories. So, then we have countries in southern Europe. So, many of the sort of middle Northern European countries. Of course, Germany is a country, which is really interesting case. It is a huge country, and it has divides within the country, of course. But we have countries such as Finland, Denmark, Luxembourg, Sweden, but also the UK. They are relatively smaller countries. And then we have larger countries, which are both new to the EU, but also in the southern part of Europe. And in some ways, countries that are more rural than some places. So, you have Greece – Cyprus, of course, is a small country. But you have a country like Romania or Bulgaria which have huge inequalities in the country. So, I think it builds on the existing inequalities that exist within society. And then, you know, it accentuates when we come to the technology aspect. So, basically, the online-offline.

Will Brehm 10:18
Right, right. And is there anything that has to do with the way in which these different countries fund their education system? And how much they might invest in these various digital infrastructures?

Halla Holmarsdottir 10:30
Well, I would think so. Of course, we haven’t really looked into that, specifically, or at least I don’t have a lot of information on that personally. But I would say, from discussions with colleagues working in some of these countries, there is a huge needs gap. So, Germany is a country which is relatively, you know, well off. It is the engine of Europe, in some ways, in terms of industry. But it is a country that hasn’t used a lot of money in providing infrastructure in all the schools. So, we find really, a surprisingly big gap between, let’s say, Norway, which has a lot of geographical variations but was one of the earlier countries being, you know, had internet connections very early on -both in rural areas and in schools- but Germany has not really funded that area so much. So, we can see quite a number of differences between countries. And then you have countries such as Romania, which just had so much to do, in terms of the different kinds of populations and the inequalities in society. I think it was really difficult or it’s challenging to provide that infrastructure to all the areas at the same time.

Will Brehm 12:00
And so, I mean, beyond education planning, you know, at the national level within these different countries across Europe, what about inside schools? Are there any sort of worries or challenges that arise out of, you know, the use of digital technologies, or you know, some of the lack of digital technology infrastructure inside certain schools? Like so, what are some of the challenges that happen inside schools rather than at the national level?

Halla Holmarsdottir 12:26
Well, I think that is an interesting question. Because when we talk about digital technologies, it is often very polarized discussion in some ways. So, you have -when we talk about technology at both in schools, but also how it affects children and young people, what often comes to mind is the aspect of screen time. The American Academy of Pediatrics Guidelines, which came in 1999, were updated in 2016, which talked about screen time, you know, the evidence. And this is what a lot of parents and families, you know, first go to whether they realize where it comes from or not, it is the screen time. And it often strikes me that some version of this, or the Guidelines, surface when we talk to both teachers and parents, but also policymakers, people don’t realize where this sort of discussion comes from. So, I think many parents are sort of challenged by allowing their children too much screen time. And so, by increasing the technology within schools, it kind of pushes back against what some parents at least feel is healthy for their children. But also, I think teachers also, you know, struggle with this aspect of screen time. So, you know, from the use of tablets for teens being glued to their mobile phones, or video games being addictive, or the worries about social media apps. So, screen time, obviously, is a hot topic. But then, on the other hand, we are willing to look at, you know, the idea of technology being an important thing for our children and our young people. So, the fact that they need to have these tools. They need to be able to access the internet, to be able to develop these kinds of skills because this is what the world of work requires. So, I think part of the challenge is that balance.

Will Brehm 14:35
Yeah, I would imagine it is quite difficult. I mean, particularly if you have children at home that are playing video games on their cell phones all the time, reading on the iPad, and then they go to school, and they’re being put in front of computer screens. And this is even before COVID. I mean now during COVID, students are literally just, you know, sitting in front of computer screens all day long to go to school. So, I mean it sort of makes sense why parents would be concerned with this?

Halla Holmarsdottir 15:03
Yeah. And I mean, I fully understand parents’, you know, worries. But also, I think for teachers, it’s been a challenge. I think COVID has pushed us probably ten years forward in a sense. We have pushed teachers and education institutions to a place that, yes, they were going to, but in a slower pace. I think also part of the challenges have been the fact that there have been no sort of what we call it -in a sense of kind of policy or guidelines, both for teachers and parents. So, we’ve heard reports of parents saying, Well, I have one kid in this school, and they’re using that platform and this software, and then I have another kid in this school, and they’re using that software and that platform. So, it is also the range of things that are being used within schools, that teachers use, that schools decide to use. So, there is not a sort of standard set of tools either. And this requires both parents and teachers to be, you know, I wouldn’t say on the same page, but certainly requires a kind of discussion between parents and teachers.

Will Brehm 16:20
And this even happens at university levels. Like where I teach, each sort of course that is being offered has a different approach to their teaching and learning. And we just sort of assume that students will just get it and understand it, even though they are going from one course to the next. And it is sort of totally structured differently, uses different tools. Even if it is on the same platform, but it’s still sort of structured differently on that platform. And I find that you know, I can sympathize with students, even who are, you know, in their 20s and 30s, probably struggling grasping how to navigate all these new technologies to simply go to class.

Halla Holmarsdottir 17:03
Yeah. And I think that is perfectly understandable. I mean, we talk about the digital generation, but okay, they are born in the digital generation, but it is not an automatic thing.

Will Brehm 17:14
That is right.

Halla Holmarsdottir 17:14
So, you know, I feel I am pretty “techie” myself, but I don’t always understand everything. How do I change my picture on zoom, for example? I had to Google that, you know. And how do I find, you know, simple things, of course, but what do we expect of 10-year old’s, or 20-year old’s or 15-year old’s, or even, you know, first-graders? That is a huge challenge. How does a teacher that has to then transfer his or her teaching online for six-year old’s deal with this? And we have heard reports of teachers being called at, you know, five o’clock in the afternoon. There is no downtime, of course, for teachers during this COVID period, you know. And children complaining, well, my parents are on the computer all day, because they are working, you know, and I am bored, you know. I just want to talk to you. And, I mean, it must be really hugely challenging for a lot of our teachers.

Will Brehm 18:15
Hmm. So, how might, and how are some of the countries in Europe overcoming some of these challenges?

Halla Holmarsdottir 18:22
Well, I think for some countries -at least I can say, for our case here in Norway, we were quite well-infrastructured, but there were schools, there were students who did not have the infrastructure at home. So, there was the possibility to deliver computers and screens, and so on and so forth. In Romania, we have 25% of children, as I said, who had no schooling. So, trying to reach those children. Estonia talks about 1,000 lost children that they, you know, didn’t manage to sort of pick up during the beginning of COVID. So, I think we need to think about what were some of the best practices, how could we, but we need to have that infrastructure available to be able to do that, to be able to provide the tools and the resources. In countries like Belgium and Norway, they kept some of the schools open during the absolute lockdown in say, early March, April, for groups of students that either whose parents were frontline workers, were healthcare workers, or workers that were desperately needed to keep the society going, but also for children who were within what we would want to call vulnerable positions, or vulnerable groups, for different reasons so that there was a possibility to have them in school. But it was a really small group in these two countries, for example.

Will Brehm 20:04
Right, right. I mean, it seems like there is so much unknown, not only about the health impacts of Coronavirus on young people, and actually just people generally. But also, in terms of ways of teaching and learning and conducting education during this moment online. I mean, there is just so much unknown, and yet, we still have to sort of go and do it, right? We still have to provide education. Teachers are still going to school or teaching classes. And so, it is just this moment of great uncertainty, and I don’t know, it’s a bit worrying in my mind.

Halla Holmarsdottir 20:43
Definitely. And I think, you know, I mean we have to look at, I would say, young people’s sort of well-being and their health. It is not just our young people, though, I think it is our teachers. Teachers are reporting, you know, overworked, overstressed. Even us working in higher education, when is our downtime when is our work time? It sort of all flows into one big thing. And I think we are seeing a lot of that. A lot of discussions on social media, both from students and teachers, perhaps not the younger students, but certainly older students who are, you know, active in social media, but also university students who are, you know, sort of dealing with issues of loneliness, of mental health, sort of general well-being during this situation. But I think that sort of also reflects our society in general, maybe even pre-pandemic, you know, where we have to look at how technology is affecting our society in general.

Will Brehm 21:57
So, what do we know about that? What do we know about, particularly, youth and their use of technology and social media before the pandemic, and its impact on well-being of children and youth?

Halla Holmarsdottir 22:11
Well, I think, given the diversity of people contained within what we would call the youth group. For us to be able to understand their situation, I think, we have to kind of look into the different types of groups. We have to consider, you know, gender, racial, ethnic diversity, socio-economic background, and particularly those that are affected maybe by inequality, but also those that are affected by a lack of opportunity, perhaps, to participate within societies. So, I think the use and some of the contention we hear about -we have the aspect of social media on the one hand, but we also have sort of gaming and the gaming addiction kind of discussion, on the other hand, and generally, we talk about that in terms of youth or young people. And we have to look at though these different background factors. Who is affected, and how they are affected, and why they are affected? And does this online aspect, or this technology aspect mirror what is already happening offline? And how do we deal with some of the online versus the offline issues? How do we deal with young people’s well-being in general, and do those mimic each other, or is social media or gaming contributing to something that is already existing within society? So, certainly, we don’t know enough. A lot of the research we have on children and young people, much of it is very survey-based, a lot of it is quantitative. We don’t have a lot of qualitative research really trying to understand their everyday lives and their sort of views. So, sort of trying to, you know, move towards that. What we also don’t have a lot of research on is even younger children. So, those under the age of 12, sort of pre-adolescent children. There is really a very dearth of research focusing on that, you know, segment of childhood.

Will Brehm 24:44
Hmm, interesting. And is there any research on, you know, potentially some of the positive effects of technology on well-being. Like is that possible as well? I mean, often we talk about it in terms of, you know, the negative effects on well-being from all this technology of screen time. But you know, could there be positive benefits?

Halla Holmarsdottir 25:04
Certainly, I mean, I think some of the positive benefits can be the sort of generic skills that children develop, being online, being able to multitask, being able to do things. And sort of these generic skills that, obviously, the world of work or society requires. As we move, many of our services and our jobs become more and more requiring these kinds of technological skills. I mean, given COVID right now, it’s very good that some of us have to have been tech-savvy, and were able to move our work online and can still do the jobs that we are tasked to do despite, you know, not being able to meet face to face. Although I would prefer the face to face personally. The online thing is great for a period of time, but it’s not something that I would like to have in the long run. So, I think we need a balanced approach, obviously. But certainly, there are a lot of things that technology offers children. Also, I think technology offers children a kind of, or it can offer us a personalized opportunity for some children. So that education can be perhaps more -not individualized in terms of that but can be more adapted to personal, you know, attributes, or personal needs, through technology. So, technology allows us to provide other things that perhaps the regular, you know, lecture, face to face teaching and learning situation has not been able to provide for children. But I think we need to look at children in a broader perspective. So, I think what we are missing is some of the positive aspects of technology in looking at how technology surrounds the different ecosystems of children and young people today. So, in other words, the different systems that surround children, not just in schools, but as we see now with COVID, families are really important, parents are really important, the home aspect is really important. I don’t think we got a sense of what parents really do to support their children’s education. We are getting a much bigger picture today than probably we had six months ago or a year ago. That is one aspect. So, understanding the role of the family or the home in supporting children’s education, but how do children use their leisure time? What can we learn from their leisure time? How can leisure time promote so sort of that informal learning that happens? So, it is not just the school setting. Or how are children becoming digital citizens, how is their civic participation developed through the use of, say, online campaigns or, okay, we may like something, or we may speak out about something -because I think young people today are less active in the sort of traditional sense of politics. So, how do we use that technology and their use of, say, social media to promote a kind of participation, within, you know, civics and democracy?

Will Brehm 28:53
Do you think the pandemic -you earlier said that the pandemic has sort of pushed us forward ten years and the use of technology in schools? Do you also think that the pandemic in a sense has pushed us forward, like as a global society, and maybe, you know, particularly in the European society -has it pushed societies forward in achieving that idea of digital citizenship? And you know, being able to actually understand more clearly how children are using technology in their leisure time. Like, are we going to come out of this pandemic and have a much better understanding? And that understanding then could change the way we sort of plan for education, think about education, operates schools. Like is this going to have a long-term effect when it comes to technology?

Halla Holmarsdottir 29:48
Well, I’m not so sure if we’ve gotten enough information from the pandemic on how children are using sort of technology in their leisure time, but I think certainly, we are getting a sense of some of the technology that’s surrounding children. What are the things they are using? What are the things they have access to? So, sort of going back to that, in a sense, first-level divide discussion, second-level divide discussion. Sort of, you know, the access and connectivity, but also the readiness and the skill sets that children have, and both what they’ve learned in school, perhaps, but also what they’re able to gain from that leisure time use. So, children who have maybe been very savvy on social media, or have spent a lot of their free time gaming or doing other kinds of activities related to technology -making YouTube videos, or TikTok, or whatever it is that they’re doing. So, that the way that they are able to use those skills, in a sense, I think, has given us some indication. Of course, it will be interesting to look at some of this post-COVID. For myself and the research project I am leading, this EU project called DigiGen. That is some of the things that we are planning to look at. Of course, the project was designed before COVID. We are in COVID. And we have to, of course, talk about the elephant in the room. So, it will be a challenge to sort of sort out what was pre-COVID and what was because of the pandemic. But I think looking at the ways in which we can build on the skill sets that children and young people get from the use of technology in their free time. And how we can build on that in education will certainly be an important part of the way in which we move forward.

Will Brehm 31:56
And I think you should please come back on FreshEd when you finish the project, and you can answer some of these questions that we have talked about today. It would be really wonderful to get a sense of what’s happening in, you know, the digital generation of today and their digital citizenship. I mean, just so many interesting questions. And also, about the teachers and families that we’ve talked about as well. So, Halla Holmarsdottir, thank you so much for joining FreshEd today. It really was a pleasure of talking.

Halla Holmarsdottir 32:26
Great, thank you for having me. And I look forward to coming back when we have some more data to report or our findings in about two years or so.

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