Will Brehm  0:00
James, welcome to FreshEd.

James  0:06
Hello, Will. Thank you for having me here.

Will Brehm  0:11
It’s really great to have you on the show to talk about your university and what’s going on in Myanmar today. So, I guess to start, could you just sort of explain to the listeners who might not know too much about what’s been going on in Myanmar? Could you give a recap of the 2021 coup in Myanmar. What happened then?

James  1:28
It all started in the February of 2021. It happened right after the nationwide election that happened in 2020. That democratically elected government was overthrown by the military junta and the military staged a coup saying there was some election frauds. So, they detained all the government officials, ministers, department members, and the activists who did not side with them. So, the public did not like it. So, the people did the demonstrations and protests all over the country. The roads were full of people with a chance to repair democracy. And then the military cracked down on all the protests with force and killed 1,000s of people that were against them. So, we call it the Spring Revolution and it is still happening all over the country from the soft strikes. It also led to the nationwide armed resistance. And it all has been chaos in the country.

Will Brehm  2:30
For over the last two years, you’re saying that the coup happened and its sort of inspired this Spring Revolution that then morphed into armed resistance, in some cases, protest movements that still go on, striking that still goes on. But the military is still in power. Is that correct?

James  2:48
Yes. And that’s correct. The military stays in power but they cannot control every part of the country anymore. They can just take control of the big cities like Yangon, Mandalay and Naypdyidaw but for the other cities and states and regions. It all has been taken back by the resistant forces and the ethnic groups.

Will Brehm  3:09
Wow. Okay. So, the country itself is, as you said, in a bit of chaos. And thinking about what’s going on in education, and in higher education, in the country is actually going to be pretty hard, isn’t it? Because it must look so different in different parts of the country?

James  3:24
The education landscape has been different since the coup, especially if we look into the higher education sector. There are a lot of stakeholders that emerged in the form of resistance to the illegitimate military junta. We can say there are a lot of stakeholders, such as the interim education providers, such as the online education providers, and Interim University Councils, and the student unions. And there are also the ethnic education departments, which got even stronger right after the coup. And also, we have the community-led initiatives that have been offering a lot of education programs like the informal technical/vocational to the students in the conflict areas. So, it has been really diverse. The landscape has been really interesting to look into. And it has been a really unique thing to look at if we would like to consider higher education in Myanmar.

Will Brehm  4:18
We’ll dive into some of those different, let’s call them, providers of higher education, because it is so interesting that there’s just this plethora of providers in this moment of conflict and chaos. But maybe we should go back to in the aftermath of the coup and just sort of Could you tell us about what happened inside the system of education and in particular, higher education? What happened when the coup took place and in the months after the coup when the Spring Revolution sort of blossomed. What happened in education?

James  4:54
All right. So, you might have seen in the news about the civil disobedience movement in Myanmar right after the coup. So, the majority of the civil servants, and the professors and also the administration staff from various government departments, and also the universities joined the disobedience movement with a mission of urging the military to go back to the barracks and to show their resistance in the best of their capability. Basically, the civil disobedience movement was all about not willing to work under the military rule, and also, the people don’t want to let the military regime operate. So, it’s like, showing the people’s power to the regime. The soft power of the civil disobedience movement really affected the military regime not to operate efficiently after the coup. So, about 80% of the university professors and staff joined the civil disobedience movement, and they got dismissed from the university because they joined the disobedience movement, and they don’t want to work under the military regime. And then those dismissed professors, and the youth groups, and the people that are interested in the education, they came together and formed a lot of interim education providers to support the interim alternative education.

Will Brehm  6:28
So, I’ll try and recap. So, basically, what you’re saying is that after the coup happened, there was this civil disobedient movement that took place. And a lot of the people who joined that movement were staff and students and faculty at universities, and then they were subsequently dismissed from their universities for participating in the civil disobedient  movement. So, then these excluded individuals came together and started coming up with alternative forms of education.

James  6:56
Yeah. That’s correct.

Will Brehm  6:57
That is quite amazing. So, let’s dig into some of these. One of the first ones you talked about were the interim education providers (IEP). So, IEP. What is an IEP? What do they look like? What do they do? Who is enrolling in them?

James  7:11
So, when we talk about the interim education providers, there are a lot of components right after that. So, we can include the online education platforms, such as the Spring University in Myanmar, and there are also the Interim University Council, which is the parallel form of the military-run universities and schools. So, those were led by the dismissed professors and the students’ unions. And for the online education providers, there are a lot of non-state education organizations. We can include Spring University Myanmar, Burma Academy and a lot of other education providers in this category. So, they have been offering a lot of courses in different disciplines such as social science, technical and vocational, STEM causes, and applied sciences. And also, federalism, peace, and college preparation causes to the students. And the students have been really active in taking the courses at those online education providers. So, it has been really supported by the students and also the dismissed professors, and also the public.

Will Brehm  8:30
It’s quite amazing that these sorts of options emerged so quickly. I guess the online element was quite helpful, but raises some questions like, why are the students going to these online providers, these interim education providers? Are they able to provide any qualification or certificate of a diploma as if you graduated a university? Can they do that?

James  8:56
We’ll have to divide this question into two parts. So, the first thing that I would like to focus on is that the students that joined the civil disobedience movement attended those online courses at the interim education providers. They call the certificates from those institutes like certificate in blah, blah, blah, and diploma in blah, blah, blah. And these are not really accredited by anybody, but these are supported by the National Unity Government, but the students did not wish for any accreditation in the first year of the coup. They started to ask for that in the second year of the coup because it has been long and CDM students have to continue their education. So, it has been there. There have been those requests from the students. So, in the first stage, the students would like to just continue their education but did not ask for the certification but in the later year they started asking for that. So, that’s one thing. The second thing is that those interim education providers collaborated with some other institutes from the other countries, such as the United States or the countries in Europe. So, it’s just a project-based, certification or accreditation. If I have to say for Spring University Myanmar, SUM has been hosting some joint collaboration projects with a lot of universities, such as the universities in the United States, and also one university from New Zealand, Victoria University of Wellington. So, we collaborated those academic projects, and as students who are enrolled in those courses and completed in those courses got the certification from those universities as well. So, it has been a motivation for them. It also has been a motivation for the education providers to keep working as well. So, the situation is like that if I have to say.

Will Brehm  10:59
It’s so fascinating, because as you said, the coup has gone on for so long now. And it’s almost like these alternative systems that emerged immediately after the coup that maybe people thought were going to just be temporary, are now institutionalizing, and they have to sort of continue to exist for quite a long time. And then so questions like accreditation, or diplomas, certification, all of these questions start arising that might not have happened in the beginning. Another big issue that I keep thinking about is funding. How do some of these alternative education providers fund themselves when they’re sort of operating outside of the state system? They’re operating outside of any national body that would allow, I would imagine, bank accounts. I would imagine it can be quite complicated. So, how does the funding work for some of these alternative education providers?

James  11:57
To answer this question, I think we will have to go back to the higher education reform that started from 2012. So, there has been a really good process of higher education reform, and the coup happened, and all the progress had to stop. But if I’m not wrong, the universities and the education ministry has been trying to give autonomy to the universities in the country. It has not happened yet but most of the universities have been planning to do that. After the coup, it all stopped. With the emergence of the Interim University Council, and also the non-state education institutes such as the online education providers, they have the autonomy to operate their own universities or education platforms. So, they have the financial independence, and they have to work on that on their own. So, it is really complicated, as you say, and is not really an easy task for each integrated education providers as well. So, there are some institutes that have been collecting some amount of fees for the courses that the students enrolled. But there are also institutes and platforms that have been offering free courses to the students just for them to continue their education. And the situation is like that. But each institution’s financial dependency is different. Some got the development and funding from the international organizations, and some do the crowdfunding with the public. So, it is really diverse, and also it has been really complicated to survive amidst this crisis.

Will Brehm  13:39
And is the military government trying to crack down on some of that sort of international assistance to these different education providers?

James  13:48
Well, yes. They have been disturbing processes. So, bank accounts of the individuals that are working at those interim education providers got blocked by the military, making them difficult to make the transactions. So, it has been really worser and worser day by day, but interim education providers have been finding lots of other ways to overcome that. So, it’s complicated but they have been trying to be creative to overcome those barriers.

Will Brehm  14:27
That’s why I always love talking about sort of alternatives in the face of state resistance. It’s always rather creative. What about students that are participating in these different educational providers? Is it safe for them to do so?

James  14:41
So, it’s not safe for them to join the platforms that are against the military. So, they have to choose an alias name to join those courses. They cannot use their personal email addresses to enroll in those courses, but there are the secondary email addresses to enroll in those platforms. And also, the in-class operation has been really difficult for the schools and also for the students to get in because most of the education providers do not allow their students to turn on their camera while learning, and also to the teachers as well, because they would like to set up the security measures to avoid any unnecessary risk. So, it has been like that. It has not been safe for the students, really.

Will Brehm  15:37
But it also sounds like that the online provision is enabling students to be safer than they would otherwise have been.

James  15:46
Yeah. That’s true. Education actors have been trying really hard not to put any risks on the students, and also for their staff and teachers as well.

Will Brehm  15:54
So, are there any sort of face-to-face alternative education provision happening. So, the online system, I can understand how that sort of evades the military rule, and allow students to keep learning in all these sorts of interesting alternative spaces? But what about sort of traditional face-to-face teaching, is that happening in sort of this alternative world?

James  16:19
Yeah. It’s really happening in some parts of the country. As I said, at the start of this podcast, there are the ethnic education colleges and departments that have been operating in some areas such as the Karenni State, Kachin State and also in some other areas as well. So, the ethnic education departments have existed since before the coup, but they have been getting stronger after the coup. There have been other alternatives for the students in the rural ethnic areas. So, they have been trying harder and they have been getting stronger and stronger. And also, there are the community initiatives in the conflict areas as well. Mostly in the central parts of the country, such as Sagaing, Magway and Mandalay. For the ethnic education departments, most of them have been offering the diploma programs and also there are the technical and vocational training as well to equip the students with the real-life skills and experience to continue working. And also, there have been some universities that emerged after the coup. For example, there is one university called Kachin State Comprehensive University (KSCU), which is a newly established university that is based in Kachin State, which is the northern part of the country in Myanmar. And also, there are some other colleges in the Karen and Kerrani State as well. So, they have been offering associate degrees or the diploma programs as the post-secondary education to the students. So, this is about the ethnic education departments and colleges. But for the community initiatives, they have been delivering the technical and vocational courses, mostly, but they are also planning to step into the more formal education programs for the students as well.

Will Brehm  18:17
Gosh, it’s so complicated. So, it’s fascinating to think that there are these ethnic education departments, which were sort of government departments that existed before the coup. And after the coup, they continued to exist, but it sounds like what you’re saying is they have a bit more autonomy to do what they want to do and not have to really think about the main government, the national government, or in this case, the military, and as you said, they’re getting stronger and stronger. So, does that mean that they’re having more autonomy to sort of develop educational provision as they see fit?

James  18:56
Let me correct you. The ethnic education departments that existed before the coup were not under the control of the government. They have been under the administration of the ethnic organizations. It is separate from the main government, it is controlled by the ethnic organizations.

Will Brehm  19:14
Okay. So, these weren’t necessarily connected to the government originally, and they’re certainly now not connected to the military government. So, in what ways are they getting stronger?

James  19:26
All right. So, before the coup, some institutes were stand-alone organizations, but right after the coup, with the resistance and the revolution towards the military regime, a lot of stakeholders have come together to form alternative education platforms, and this includes the ethnic education department as well. So, there are more human resources that would like to contribute to the ethnic education departments, and also from the international aid organizations as well. So, the conflict got stronger, and also the resistance has also been stronger as well.

Will Brehm  20:05
And then these community sort of initiatives that emerged, as you were saying, do these ever sort of come into conflict with some of the other educational providers that have also emerged? So, for instance, are there community initiatives that are sort of separate from and sort of in contestation with the ethnic education departments? Does that happen? Like, in a province, is there such complexity of the sort of educational services that some of the community initiatives are actually very different from what the ethnic education department is offering?

James  20:43
So, there are some areas that the community initiatives and the ethnic education colleges coexist together, but the education services that they provide are different. So, as far as I have known, the community initiatives have mostly been offering the vocational skills training to the students, while the ethnic education departments offer the associate degree or the diploma programs?

Will Brehm  21:10
Right. Okay. So, they’re not necessarily competing with each other. They’re sort of providing different options.

James  21:15
Yes, that’s true. And also, they are some cases that they collaborate together to provide the opportunities for the students.

Will Brehm  21:23
And do any of the online spaces that emerge. Do they also collaborate with these other sorts of in person spaces? The community initiatives or the ethnic education departments?

James  21:33
Yes, there are a lot of collaborations happening between them that the other online education providers have also been collaborating with the community initiatives to have more impact on the grassroot level. For example, Spring University Myanmar has also been collaborating with a lot of ethnic education departments, and also with the community initiatives to offer some programs. Actually, SUM has been offering a hybrid style diploma in an integrated area in collaboration with one community initiative.

Will Brehm  22:06
There’s this idea in education called shadow education. Usually, it’s referred to private tutoring that happens alongside ,what we call, mainstream schooling. But it sounds like in Myanmar today, shadow education is this massive system because there is this conflict going on? I mean, it’s a really fascinating sort of site to sort of explore new meanings of shadow education. But from someone who has -you know, you work with an online university. The University has started putting out some reports that have looked at all of these alternative education providers and trying to just map what this looks like because it’s so complex, and it’s changing because of the situation, and because of the sort of chaos and the conflict. What do you think some of the implications are of this system that you are sort of documenting and mapping?

James  22:58
I mean, let’s just look back to the past two years. It has been really great. Among all those limitations, constraints, and conflicts happening around the country, alternative education programs have survived really well, and the progress has been really in mass. When we look at the military ran universities, there are less students. I mean, there are only a few amounts of students that are attending those courses. And the certification and graduation cannot be certified by any accreditation body or any stakeholder. It is just a certificate that has been issued by the military government. So, the international universities trying to neglect those certificates as well. While that is happening with the military side, with fewer amounts of teachers and qualifications, the alternative education programs have been trying hard to get the accreditation from the different stakeholders. The ethnic education departments are also mobilizing their students and teachers to have a quality education. They have also been encouraging the freedom of education, while the students at the military run university have not permitted about it. They will just arrest the students if they speak about federalism or democracy or anything that is related to coup. But for students on the other side, the students at the alternative education programs can just freely discuss what they think of, and it has been encouraged by every single institute and individual. So, that thing alone is really different from the military run institutes and the teachers, and the students have been really motivated to change the system of the education, as you know, that we got between 2015 and 2020. So, the students and teachers and also the institutes continue to fight against the limitation and the junta, and the military ran ideologies. So, it has been really great. And I think it will continue to be stronger and stronger.

Will Brehm  25:16
Looking at all of these different alternative education providers is quite amazing that they exist and that they’re collaborating and that they’re getting international support and that students are going and it almost sounds like some of them are trying to institutionalize and trying to think, “Okay, now that we’re gonna actually have to be here for a while because the military is still in power, and we’re not sure what’s going to happen in the future, we now have to make sure that these different institutions can sort of continue to exist”. And so, in that environment, do you think these alternatives are going to be sort of part of the education system in Myanmar going forward for the foreseeable future?

James  25:55
I believe those alternative platforms will continue to exist in the future as well. I mean, in the foreseeable future, there are a lot of students and youth that require continuous education. So, I believe those different education stakeholders, such as online education providers, ethnic education departments, community initiatives, they will strive to continue for the sake of students.

Will Brehm  26:20
Well, James, thank you so much for joining FreshEd and telling me all about alternative education providers, and about Spring University of Myanmar. Good luck with this sort of alternative education provision and keep me posted and keep us posted with what goes on in Myanmar. Thank you so much.

James  26:40
Thank you for having me here.

Want to help translate this show? Please contact info@freshedpodcast.com

Mentioned Resources

Myanmar’s spring revolution: A people’s revolution

Civil Disobedience Movement (CDM)

The National Unity Government

Spring University Myanmar

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Re-envisioning higher education in Myanmar’s spring revolution

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Have any useful resources related to this show? Please send them to info@freshedpodcast.com